Over the past couple weeks I listened to a 4 and a half hour long podcast episode. I listened to it in bits and pieces walking from the subway to the office or into my apt or walking the napping boys around the block 17 times in circles.
I wondered a lot how many other people would listen to such a long episode. How unique am I? And if others listen all the way through what's their reason for doing so?
Mine was to gauge the quality and the type of the conversation. I wanted to know, if time was not a constraint, what might unfold? More specifically, might an interchange of a higher quality ensue? It was a unique recorded and produced and widely shared conversation in that it was so long.
The conversation was billed as a debate and set up as one. Two gentlemen representing one side, two, the other. And debate is certainly what ensued. It reminded me of the map of conversation that William Isaacs writes about in his book Dialogue: The Art of Thinking Together and that I share in this post from a while back. There is a place for debate in life. The word debate itself points to beating down, as though one might beat down one's opponent. In this case, I was struck by the beating out of the positions to see what shook out. I learned a lot from what shook out. I saw which position I more or less identified with and I learned the points of other, more opposing perspectives. To some extent they beat the topic/horse dead and almost at times to the point of being hoarse of voice.
There was a time when I would have listened to such a combative conversation and lamented they didn't choose dialogue as a type of conversation. This time I could see the value. But I am curious if any of these participants or the moderator even know there's any other option. I suspect they think either there are individuals putting out their side of the story wherever they happen to be online, on a podcast or in person, or they're signing up for a debate. No option C. Solo pontificating, debating as a duo or as pairs or nothing. I actually want to know if they have any notion of any other type of conversation.
I also want to know what that conversation would have looked like if the podcaster had billed it as, and prepared it as, a generative dialogue session. I pictured this scenario while I listened throughout. It'd would have to have started with an invitation to the conversation and be followed by some level of introduction to the map of conversation. The pitfalls along the path would have to be spelled out and all parties would have to sign on to hold one another accountable when another unthinkingly began down an unintended path.
What would that conversation be like I wonder? Here are a few of the characteristics of that hypothetical that interest me:
It is not one to one but a group so it might be less personal
All are extremely familiar with the topic including its history so it's brought to bear often, when necessary, or in other words, the group isn’t ignorant of the complicated context
The length of the conversation is very expanded so many interconnected topics and conflicts can arise and be possibly or partially resolved or revisited rather than cut short
“Whole” people might participate rather than just the rational parts of people citing (highly disputed) historical facts
Steps towards a common understanding can be taken and scenarios, even day dreams about conceivable transformation can be generated collaboratively (new can be generated)
I assume this type of conversation would create space around and in between the positions at the table. That space might allow for nuance and even mutual respect and cordiality. That nuance and respect might yield not just newness but newness of a higher quality. What might the meaning of higher quality newness lead to? Getting off the merry-go-round of the conflict the positions are situated in. In many conflicts, especially of the identity or global sort we're stuck in a loop lobbing the same little details of the out positions across the table at each other. Do we really want to stay in the debate loop forever? Don't we want to spiral out into the new?
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